Interview:2001/05 Holy Wood: The Genesis of the Unholy Trilogy

Holy Wood: The Genesis of the Unholy Trilogy
Photos: Paul Brown
Interview with Marilyn Manson
Date	May, 2001
Source	Outburn #14
Interviewer	Rev. Moose

Waging a war against religion, the White House, and even retailers, Marilyn Manson returns from the dead with perhaps his greatest opus, Holy Wood (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death). Originally conceived as an album, book, and film, Holy Wood fulfills the final, yet first part of the revolutionary trilogy that also includes the dark angst of 1996's Antichrist Superstar and the post-glam androgyny of 1998's Mechanical Animals. Inspirational and infuriating, the out-spoken and opinionated Manson is everything America loves to hate. We should consider ourselves fortunate, however, to have someone like Manson to counteract the right-wing religious finger pointers and closed-minded conservatives of our world, if for no other reason than to lend a balance to all the madness.

If you have ever read an interview with Marilyn Manson it is obvious that there is more to the man besides a tongue-in-cheek name and a counterculture freak show. Although I never referred to him by name during this interview, he was so pleasant and articulate that a kind of camaraderie was assumed. From the aftermath of Columbine to his latest Guns, God, and Government world tour, Manson speaks cut about the making and motivations behind Holy Wood, his own newly formed Posthuman record label, and the fact that electricity is hard to find in the valley of death. The truth is, when you talk to him in person, it all really does make sense.

How did your background of being a music journalist prepare you for what you've been doing for the last five years or so?

In a way, music is journalism. Because in a sense you are really taking a look at the world and telling people your opinion on it. So, for me, it did give me the desire and insight to not limit my overall picture to just music, because the media is also something that I use to express and manipulate my ideas with.

In a recent interview you said, "You can understand more about someone in their fiction writing." Can you elaborate on that?

I was referring to my new book that I just wrote, which unlike my autobiography, is fiction. I think that people will learn more about me. Because you tend to project a lot more personal things into characters and metaphors, because you're not self-conscious of it being specifically about you.

Does that also relate to the characters you portray on your albums?

I think so. It would be hard to say. Because in a sense, I create a character and then I end up living that role. It's not like playing a character. It's hard to say if the character is projecting itself on me or if I am projecting myself on the character, because it's more of a metaphor to represent different periods of my life.

Holy Wood is meant to be the first part of the trilogy, even though the other two albums have already been released, is that right? Maybe you can explain this better...

With Antichrist Superstar I took some dreams that I was having — very explicit, very vivid dreams — and created an album about that. In a way, what I was doing was projecting into the future... projecting where I sit today, and it hadn't happened. I knew that I was at an ending. In some ways, I not only had to live, but I also had to write the rest of the story. So I started working my way backwards. With Holy Wood, it was kind of completing the circle. And it took me thinking about where it all started to realize how to get to the ending, if starting with Holy Wood, all the stories and characters are just personifications of different things in my life. It's about being naive, wanting to fit in this perfect world that I've called Holy Wood, and fighting your whole life to try to fit into something people don't want you in. When you finally manage to get there, by luck or by will, whatever it may be, you realize everyone around you are the people that beat you down and laughed at you and treated you like shit to begin with. That's obviously something... the disillusionment, the apple of knowledge in a sense, causes a lot of anger that manifests in a revolution. Anybody who is idealistic enough to think that they can start a revolution always feels that they can change the world.

Does that include you?

It does include me. What you find is that you can only change yourself. But that's something I didn't find until much later. What happens is the revolution not only doesn't change the world, it gets turned inside out and it becomes a product. You become something or someone that is everything that you were fighting against in the first place. That's everything I was trying to say with Mechanical Animals, but being taken out of context, it's much easier to understand now then it was at the time.

With Antichrist Superstar, Mechanical Animals, and Holy Wood is the story complete?

Well, when you get to the point where your revolution is turned inside out, you have to make a choice of whether you are going to be destroyed or whether you are going to destroy things yourself. You're going to destroy what you've become — destroy your world — whether that's literal or metaphorical. With me, I chose to destroy everything I became when making this record, completing the circle, completing my own personal transformation. I feel like whatever it is that I've set forth to become when I wrote Antichrist Superstar, I've made that transformation. I've become a stronger person. I've learned from everything that I've done, and I feel the same enthusiasm and the same desire and rage that I did ten years ago when I started the band. I do feel born again...

You mentioned feeling rage, and Holy Wood is a noticeably much angrier album than anything you have done in the past. Where did you draw that from?

Spending three months alone after Columbine and dealing with the fact that in some ways, you feel like the entire world is blaming you of something you didn't do... that everybody wants to see you fail, everybody wants to destroy you, and tear apart everything you believe in. Trying to decide, "Well, am I going to let it destroy me or am I going to rebuild it as something different?" So I had to find in myself a reason to make another record, a reason to stand up and take the world on. With Columbine, it wasn't a war that I was willing to fight because it wasn't my war, but with this record, it's a war that I'm going to fight. It's a war about standing up and having an opinion and not letting anyone stop me from having that opinion.

At this point in your career, do you think Marilyn Manson could still stir up the same shit if you put out a bluegrass album? I mean, how do you think America would react even if you put out an album full of you and an acoustic guitar?

It's hard to say. I think that music is for the people who are listening to it. As an artist you can't be self-indulgent and always do things on a whim or do things just for your own enjoyment. You do have to enjoy what you're doing, but you also have to keep in mind that you're making music. At least I am making music to try and say something to people, or to try and share something with people so that they feel like here's something that has no judgements. You listen to music, but music also listens back. People can turn to it as something to let their emotions run wild with. I wouldn't do something like [a bluegrass album], but if I did, it may just be so ironic that it would stir up the world. I don't know. For me, I try to cause chaos and try to break down all of the little regimented elements of people's lives, so that they think about things in a different way. But I'm not grandiose enough to think that Holy Wood will be the cause of stirring up the world or it will be controversial or offensive. I've said sarcastically, "This is the most violent record. I hope it pisses people off" and things like that, but to me it's a very personal, very beautiful record. The images aren't offensive to me. I think they're interesting and ironic. It's me, myself, Marilyn Manson that causes the chaos and the music is one way that I do it, but it's always bigger than that. The music is the most important part... it's the core.

The album artwork for Holy Wood seriously kicks a lot of ass and has been banned in certain retail outlets... what did you do to achieve that final image?

Paul Brown (the artist) and I worked on the images at the same time we were recording the album. While writing songs, there were particular symbols that I drew from the tarot and from alchemy and from Christianity and things like that, that were literally inspiring each other. An image might inspire a song; a song might inspire an image. It wasn't difficult, and it was only time consuming because we took our time doing things carefully. A lot of effort was put into it but not in a tedious way where I would consider it work or regret it in any form.

You were also working on turning this into a book, like you said, and also a film — all to have been released at the same time. Why didn't the film come to fruition?

Initially, even as far back as Antichrist Superstar, I wanted to make this story into a film. What I found was, ironically enough, since it was about a revolution being turned inside out, that's exactly what most people wanted to do with it. They wanted to soften it and make a lot of money off of it. I could have done that, but I would have made something I wasn't proud of. Instead, I wrote a book that I'm proud of and I wrote an album that I'm proud of. I thought it was more important for me to represent the story properly and not have it watered down. I just put it on the back burner. It's something that could happen, but if it doesn't I'm satisfied with what I've done.

Don't you have the resources to release it as an independent film?

I could have released it as an independent film or as a major motion picture, either way, but it wasn't a matter of that. It gets very complicated, and censorship had become so much uglier since it was an election year. It was matters of distribution and it wouldn't be shown. People were very afraid of it. I thought I would wait, because there is a lot of technology that is coming around with the internet and things like that where you don't have to live under those rules. It's such an in depth and important story, and it has a lot of powerful images in it. To me, I just didn't want to water them down. I didn't want to make another stupid Hollywood movie.

Are you afraid that Joe Lieberman and Tipper Gore could enforce laws that might affect the availability of what you do?

It's possible. I think it just makes it that much more important for me and other people like Eminem. Whether you agree with what we create, the fact that we are creating it — the fact that we have a right to create it — is important. It's really good that Eminem has achieved so much power, because it makes it that much harder for them.

Do you feel what you and Eminem do is comparable, and at what level?

In a way, I think that we both have similar attitudes towards the world. I can't say that I agree with everything that he does, I'm sure he doesn't agree with everything I do. I think it's kind of ironic, because in a way I opened up a door for him to step into. I know that when he was originally signing with Interscope, they played me his album and his claim to represent himself was that he was the rap version of Marilyn Manson, which was why they played it for me. So I kind of opened a door for him, now he's opened up a bigger door for me and everyone else. It just helps. I think that there needs to be other ways of thinking always circulating through the mainstream. I'm in a very ironic position because I'm part of pop culture, but what I'm doing is very counter-cultural. It's complicated to do that with sincerity, and I'm very sincere about what I do, but there are a lot of bands out there that aren't right now. Heavy music is fashionable and angst is marketed. It's all contrived in a lot of ways. I think, unfortunately, for outsiders it's hard to see when it's real and when it's not. I think when it comes down to it, it's the music and if it lasts. A lot of bands that are real popular right now, that I bear no jealousy towards, I think in five or ten years you are going to pick up the record and there's not going to be anything there that you can relate to, because it's very of the moment.

Who are you a fan of currently that has put out quality releases over the last few years?

I, unfortunately, like more obscure stuff... like PJ Harvey. I love Radiohead. I'm listening to their new record and trying to get a grasp on that. I like the new Deftones record. I think that they did the right thing by not falling into that "A.D.I.D.A.S." rock trap that so many bands fall into — it's just heavy for the sake of heavy. There are a lot of great melodies; there is something to grab onto there.

You now have Posthuman Records — Godhead being your first signing. What are your immediate plans for the label?

My goal with starting a record label was to have an outlet to work with new bands, obviously I think a lot of artists make the mistake signing everything in sight. I've signed one band and I put out the soundtrack to Blair Witch 2.

Which you are on...

Yeah, we put a cover of "Suicide is Painless" on there. Which is by the way, one of the most depressing songs, and no one can ever accuse me of encouraging suicide when you hear that thing.

Has there ever been a time in your career where you did seriously consider suicide as an out?

I think there have been plenty of times when I've thought that, but I've always felt there's some sort of unfinished business that I have. So that's kept me going.

Looking at mainstream culture, it can be argued which side of the normal scale your fans sometimes fall on. How is your relationship with them and what amount of responsibility do you feel towards your fans?

I feel like a spokesperson, not a role model. I feel that they don't want a role model to begin with, but they do need a spokesperson because I'm in a position where I can say what they want to say and no one is listening to. That's why so many kids are pissed off these days. America has this very clever subversive form of fascism that they distribute through commercials and things like that — making you feel, all the time while you're growing up, that you're not good enough if you don't wear this, you're not good enough if you don't go to this school or drive this car. So you've got a lot of people that feel like they're not good enough and nobody is speaking for those people. I'm the one who has always felt that way, so I'm trying to be their voice. I feel very close to them. Now more than ever, because after the beating that I took in '99 by everybody in the world who wanted to blame me for anything that happened... once one thing started, I was being blamed for the weather.

Which wasn't that good, by the way. Thanks a lot...

(laughs) I felt worst than I did growing up. I felt really bullied, but it's a lot harder when you feel the entire world is against you.

What does that do to you as a person, not as Marilyn Manson, but just you as an individual?

It makes me more pissed off because I know I'm right, I have the ability to listen to their opinion and decide that I don't like this part of it or I do like this part of it, but they're too closed minded to ever listen to mine. I know that it doesn't even matter what I'm saying... my open mindedness makes me more right than they are. I just want to be the devil's advocate, be the naysayer, be the person who questions whatever is being held up as right or wrong.

If you weren't a multi-platinum selling artist, do you think people would give a shit?

If I didn't write songs that people liked, people wouldn't give a shit. Record sales and numbers and things like that, I don't think kids care about, and I don't think that it's something that I should ever care about. If people like what you're doing — and I guess that's represented in record sales, but I don't think that's the best way to look at it — and a lot of people hate what you're doing, then you must be doing something right.

Is there ever a time where you feel like escaping, where you just want to blend into the crowd and not be Marilyn Manson, not be the guy in the spotlight?

I did that for a year. I think I've been pretty quiet, pretty tucked away, pretty busy for the past nine months.

How did you manage that?

I didn't leave the house. I was at home and then I would go work at the Houdini mansion where we finished most of our recording. Ironically, he was an escape artist. So if that has some sort of strange analogy to you, there's your answer.

What went into Holy Wood as far as who worked on it, what parts they played... that type of thing? I understand you did some of it in the desert...

The timeline was about a year ago, which was when I hid away for three months, working along just lyrically and on my book which ended up inspiring one another and intertwining a lot — helping me understand exactly what I wanted to do and helping me understand parts of my life. By putting it into metaphors and into characters, I understood why I am who I am and why I do the things I do in some ways. When that three months was done, I got with the band... they had written hundreds of pieces of music. I ended up working, and we made probably about thirty of them into songs and tightened it down to the nineteen that really started the beginning and end. It was very focused for me, because I knew exactly what I wanted and the band was really in tune. We spent about three months completing the songs as a band. We recorded everything in my home studio at my house where The Rolling Stones used to live. They wrote "Let it Bleed" there, so it had good musical heritage to it. When we finished that, we were working all that time with Bon Harris who used to be in Nitzer Ebb. He contributed to pre-production and sequencing and some engineering and things like that. We did things very basically and very primitive in a way, but experimental... it was a good system we had going. The only thing that we really couldn't accomplish was recording drums and bigger projects... loud things. We found the Houdini house. We remodeled it a bit, moved in there, and built a studio in about a week and finished the rest of the tracking there and the vocals. During that time, we made a few field trips out to the desert, but there wasn't anything we could really record there because there was no electricity. We did record some acoustic things on a portable DAT — things that may or may not pop up as B-sides and stuff like that. It was more about the inspiration of it. There were songs on the album that I really wanted to feel like Death Valley, and it wasn't something that you could just dream up. I wanted everyone to really, in a method way, go there and get a feeling for it.

What do you want someone to walk away with from Holy Wood after they listen to it all the way through in one sitting?

I think the question that it asks at the end is "What do I do to change this? How do I change myself?" That's what the record really asks. It's this whole struggle to really change everything around you, and you realize that you only end up losing everything when you do that. If you start with yourself, then you can really accomplish something.

Let's talk about changing yourself. To what extent would you modify your body until it's just not cool anymore?

(laughs) Uh... I don't know. That's a hard question. I always look at myself like a canvas, I want to express something with the way I look, feel free to change anything.

Once you cut anything off, it's gone. If you start getting into amputation, it's not coming back...

Yeah, I don't think that I would amputate anything, although I do have a fondness for prosthetic limbs. I can't say that I would do that intentionally. In fact, that would seem insulting to people who have been wounded, that someone would do that to themselves, but that's just me.

I'm sure some people might say the same thing about other stuff you've done...

That's true. I have a strange fascination and respect for people who are disfigured, because I never see it as ugly or handicapped. And I never treat people like they're incapable. I treat them how I assume they want to be treated — like a regular person, I meet a lot of people like that and I always get along well with them. It's not being magnanimous. It's not some charity thing. I guess it's from being a writer or from being an observer, I really like to learn things from people. People who have been through very dramatic changes in their lives... I often have a lot to learn from.

Do you think they would reciprocate that feeling if all of a sudden you were in a bind? After the Columbine thing and the whole year that you spent in the dark, do you think if you had turned to the handicapped community and said, "Listen, I need a little support" would they have been there for you?

I don't know, because I don't think it's that organized. I don't go to meetings or something like that...

Hey, they have to get parking spaces somehow...

Yeah, I don't know, I couldn't answer that.

How have you been able to use your website to promote Marilyn Manson?

In the last year, I used it as a media outlet because I didn't want to talk to the press, which was pretty effective because I was able to speak to my fans directly. Whenever a rumor would pop up, I would let them know exactly what the truth was: I have used it in lieu of interviews — answer their questions that they want answered without it being edited or condensed or things that magazines have to do because of their restraints. It's given me the freedom, and it's one area of culture that has the potential to revolutionize the way everything is done. I tried to give people previews of the album, knowing the threat of Napster and leaks and things like that, but several songs appeared on there. There's not much you can do about it. The only thing I dislike about Napster is the control and the element of surprise, because it's like opening your presents before Christmas. Once the album's out, I could care less if it's on there. Before it comes out, I think it's a little unfair to the fans and the artist, because the fans aren't going to be able to resist and the artist should be able to give it to the fans how they want. I was giving previews several months ago because I wanted the fans to hear part of it, but wanted to do it on my terms.

Are you worried someone will dethrone you as the man America loves to hate? Do you watch your back for the next up and coming punk-ass kid and try to beat him to the next punch?

No, I just always do what I do, and I do it as best as I can. I think there are bands that have come and gone, before and after me. If you do things right, and you do it with sincerity and you do it well, then you have no worries.

Scans

Credit: marilynmansonflower

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